Counsel Assisting
Commissioner, the first witness this morning is Mr. Josh Burns. I call him.
Commissioner
Mr. Burns, will you take an oath or an affirmation?
Josh Burns
I'm happy to take either, but I'm happy to take an oath.
Counsel Assisting
Mr. Burns, what's your full name, please?
Josh Burns
My name is Joshua Solomon Burns.
Counsel Assisting
Your address is known to the Commission, and you are the member of Federal Parliament for the seat of Macnamara in Victoria. You took up that role on the second of July, 2019. Is that right?
Josh Burns
Yes, that's when we were sworn in. We actually won the election on the 18th of May, but it takes a while for it to become official.
Counsel Assisting
Yes, your electorate office is located in St Kilda.
Josh Burns
It is.
Counsel Assisting
Can you please tell the Commission a little bit about the structure of that office, what's done from there, and the staff that you have there, and so on.
Josh Burns
Absolutely. So it's a federal electorate office, so it serves the people of Macnamara. We have around 140,000 people who live in the electorate of Macnamara. It's a bit more as the population grows, and I have a team of five full-time equivalent staff who look after everything From answering questions that people have when they pick up when they call the office to assistance with federal government departments like the NDIS, like immigration cases, they help me with my community engagement work when community groups want grants, when they want access to different government departments. It's a it's a functional office there to support the community of Macnamara, and I'm very fortunate to have wonderful people who work in my office. The majority of which are not Jewish, but some of them are, and they're great people.
Counsel Assisting
You've described in your statement your family background. Could you explain that, please?
Josh Burns
Sure. So, all four of my grandparents were born in different countries. They only one was born in in Carlton, in Melbourne. It's why I go for the Carlton Football Club. But other other than that, my grandparents on my father's side were from the United Kingdom, and then my grandmother left Scotland. Left my grandmother on my mother's side left Germany in 1938, about the week before the Kristallnacht, and she was stateless when she came to Australia. She was part of the small number of Jewish people who were able to get into Australia prior to World War II, and all four of my grandparents are Jewish, and they all sort of descended, whether it was from different parts of Melbourne or Europe, into what is now my electorate and the community that I grew up in. And yeah, this country gave my family everything. My even my my on my father's side, they were 10 pound poms and came with nothing, and in two generations, I'm able to become a member of the federal parliament, and I think that's a wonderful reflection on our country. That poor Jewish migrants can set up a life and have opportunity to dream big and to build a family. And Australia has given my family everything, and we owe it a lot.
Counsel Assisting
You grew up in Melbourne.
Josh Burns
I did. As beautiful as this city is, I proudly grew up in Melbourne.
Counsel Assisting
We’ll forgive you for that for the moment. You attended a Jewish day school?
Josh Burns
I went to Gardenvale Primary School, which was a State school, and then I went to Mount Scopus College, which was at my high school.
Counsel Assisting
You played sports with the local basketball team, I understand?
Josh Burns
I did. I can't say my game's getting better, Councilor.
Counsel Assisting
Now, can can I ask you about some of your education experiences at school. You obviously had an understanding of the Holocaust from your family, but were you taught about that at school?
Josh Burns
I think that my my first distinct memory of Holocaust education was when we went to the Holocaust Museum, and then also. We had a screening of Schindler's List in high school, and that sort of started an intensive examination of the Holocaust as part of my high school education. But my grandmother actually, she obviously was German, and she still felt very connected to her German heritage. She still went to the German club in the CBD of Melbourne. We're not really sure why, but she kind of liked it, and she, yeah, she she she never lost that part of of who she was, and in fact, I think she found it found comfort in in Australia. But she also, you know, we also did grow up knowing that the family that she left behind, the family that didn't weren't able to escape prior to World War II were in a small town that were that was one of the first sent to Auschwitz, and all of the family that my grandmother left behind, we believe, were killed on the 15th of February, 1941, in a gas chamber. So, I think, I think it's you know it's it's the Holocaust was was something that you know it sort of we all knew about we all we all were taught about and then at school I remember learning about it in greater context and in fact I studied a few units on it in university as well but for my own family it was something that was a bit a bit more personal and a bit quieter, and a bit more something that my grandmother made sure we knew, but we also didn't didn't talk about that much.
Counsel Assisting
And your own experience at primary school and high school in Melbourne-did you encounter antisemitism in those years?
Josh Burns
I mean, to be honest, I can count on one hand the instances of antisemitism that happened prior to really 7 October 2023. I mean, even after becoming elected to the federal parliament, maybe a couple of times on a sporting field, but that was probably a reflection of the fact that it was just you know the game was getting a little bit heated, but never did I grow up thinking being Jewish was ever going to be something I would have to hide, something that would prohibit me from reaching any any part of Australian society or reaching any of the goals that I would have for my life or for my family. But yeah, something dramatic shifted in October 2023.
Counsel Assisting
And by that stage, you'd been a Member of Parliament for some four years or so. Can I just go back to the period after high school and before you entered Parliament? What did you do in that period?
Josh Burns
So I finished university, traveled, did all of that sort of things that a young person should do, and then I came back and worked for a publishing company, and yeah, I was in a really good job, but I wanted to pursue politics, and so I, through you know series of sacrifices, left a full time gig to go and work part time in politics, and then after a successful but non victorious attempt at winning the state seat of Corfield in 2014, I managed to work or get a job working for Daniel Andrews, who was the Premier of Victoria, and worked for him for four years. And then the plan was never actually to become the member for Macnamara. That was meant to be a friend of mine. But when the train arrives at the station, you have to turn. You have to get on it. So I've been very lucky to be elected now three times by the people of Macnamara.
Counsel Assisting
Can you describe the electorate to us for those of us who try to avoid Melbourne?
Josh Burns
With great pleasure. The electorate of Macnamara is the inner south of Melbourne. So the border is the Yarra River. So we've got some of the country's finest arts institutions in Southbank. Everything from the Australian Ballet, the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra, the Arts Center, so many other different national galleries of Victoria, all of that sort of part of it. Then we have Port Melbourne, which is so you know such a historic community, but also gentrifying, moving all the way down the Bay into St Kilda, around Elwood, looping into Elstralmeek and Caulfield, which is where I grew up and where a lot of the Jewish community live in East St Kilda, Ripon Leigh, Caulfield North, and then back up through Windsor, Albert Park, Middle Park, and Albert Park in South Melbourne as well.
Counsel Assisting
It has a vibrant Jewish community?
Josh Burns
Very, very vibrant. Yes, we're the largest Jewish electorate in Victoria. I believe Wentworth is the only electorate in the country that has a larger Jewish population.
Counsel Assisting
Your statement addresses a brief summary of what you have heard from your constituents about their experiences of antisemitism? Are you able to encapsulate that for the Commission?
Josh Burns
I think the most stark story I remember was I was in Canberra, and they have school school children coming to Canberra to participate in civics education, and I had a group of Year Nine girls from Beth Rifka Ladies College, which is a Jewish school right in the heart of my electorate, and I said to them, "You know, put up your hand if you've experienced antisemitism, and they all put up their hand. I said, "All right, well, let's let's dissect that. Put up your hand if you've had someone say shout at you on the way to and from school, walking to and from school, and barely a hand went down. These are Year 9 girls, who are distinctly dressed in sort of school uniforms that have you know a sort of modest and religious design to them, and these year nine girls had all experienced someone pulling up on one of the high streets in and around my community near where I live, screaming at them because they're Jewish. And the students came to Canberra last year, so it was again the same sort of timeline of the escalation in antisemitism post October 7.
Counsel Assisting
And you refer to the steps you've taken to provide some sort of response to the concerns raised with you by your constituents, and you've indicated some of the the meetings and time you've you've spent with that. Could you could you describe?
Josh Burns
I mean, unfortunately, I've spent way too much time trying to respond to antisemitism, and whether it be I was chair of a parliamentary inquiry on antisemitism at universities. So I've met with a lot of Jewish students about their experience at university. It was the Human Rights Committee that that did that inquiry that I was the chair of. I've met with Jewish artists on a number of occasions when they have been either shows have been canceled, or they have been shut out of places that they would otherwise be able to express themselves creatively. I've been, as I said, met with school students. I've met with so many different people in my electorate, doctors, mental health professionals, people who feel like they have had some part of their life restricted because of being on the basis of them being Jewish, and it has been one of the hardest things as a member of Parliament, who also now is a member of the government or privileged to be a member of the government, to respond in a way that's adequate. And clearly, this royal commission is so important because there is still more work to be done. And following the terror incidents at Bondi, it's never been more urgent to make sure that the work of this commission returns our country, or at least lays out a pathway to return our country back to all of the people who live in my electorate, not worrying about whether or not they're dressing or identifying themselves as being visibly Jewish, or whether they're worried about how it'll affect their workplace or how it'll impact their their life in Australia. Because I know that just like my family, the people who I represent, they love this country and it means everything to them.
Counsel Assisting
Do the reports from your constituents reflect the characteristic that you referred to earlier, and only since 7 October 2023, there's been quite a change in the extent and nature of antisemitism.
Josh Burns
Absolutely, and I'm sure the ECAJ or some of the other Jewish community organizations can give the exact numbers on the incidents. But from all accounts, certainly from our records as well, the spike in antisemitism post October seven was real.
Counsel Assisting
In terms of your electorate office in St Kilda since October 2023, can you describe what you've had to deal with in that context?
Josh Burns
I mean, obviously, the the most high high profile incident was on 19 June 2024, when I woke up, and my office manager, my staff member, called me. It was about 6am and they were sort of -you could hear this panic in her voice, and she said to me, "You know, Josh, someone's attacked the office. Turn on the news.” And I, I turned on the news and it was blanket coverage of my office, which was so surreal. I mean, this was anyone's welcome to come to our office in Berkeley Street, but it's you know, it's a sort of pretty. Pretty sort of suburban part of St Kilda, and not that interesting. And to have so much, you know, just have all of the the sirens and the blue and red lights surrounding it, the fire brigade putting out the fire. Initially, I remember seeing the images of sort of a small hole in the glass with sort of much, much bigger sort of ricochets into the glass, and I thought, oh my gosh, someone's shot into my office. That was my initial thought, and then I saw the footage that someone had off the CCTV, and I was almost almost relieved that all they brought was a hammer to come in and smash up our office. And I was actually speaking to my colleague Tim Watts, who's the member for Gellibrand, yesterday, and he, you know, he said he's he's also had his office vandalized, but he's never had horns drawn on his head or had the sort of graffiti that I had surrounding it.
Counsel Assisting
I'll bring up an image, which you've attached to your statement, if you don't mind. It's annexure JB-2 to your statement showing the street front of your electorate office, and you can see the smashed glass in the in the door that you've just referred to.
Josh Burns
Yeah, you can see on the right-hand side where it's got the white writing of Josh Burns MP, and then the sort of it's the clearer background. You can see the sort of smaller pinpoints at the start, and then how the the glass sort of spreads from there. That was that was the initial concern. But then what we later realized was the most dangerous part was underneath where the photo of me sort of sitting down is this. You can see a burnt communications pit where they set a light. But then the other communications pit that was also set alight was right outside the residential door, which is right next to the door in my office, where it leads up to four residential apartments, where families were evacuated at 3:30 in the morning, including a young baby. And yeah it was it was pretty reckless and pretty dangerous that incident.
Counsel Assisting
And then the writing on the left is not completely clear in the photograph, but it says ‘Zionism is fascism’. And a photograph of you -
Josh Burns
With horns on my head.
Counsel Assisting
With horns on your head. How did how did that impact you personally?
Josh Burns
I mean, my first thought was for like the residents above, and I was actually sort of felt guilty that they they would they had to get evacuated in the morning. Thankfully, they were all incredible and generous, and not particularly pleased that they were evacuated. But they were all kind to to me and my team because of the communication pits, all of the businesses lost internet throughout for the whole week, and we kind of went up and down to all of the people. We know everyone on the street, and yeah, they were some of the businesses were pretty pretty affected by it all. But the main thing I felt was was really for my staff. I mean, like this is their workplace. This is you know some like at the time I think I had two Jewish staff members. Maybe majority of my staff were not Jewish. They were progressive young people who cared about the Labor Party, who cared about our country, wanted to work in politics, had big dreams about influencing policy and progressive change in Australia, and they they come to work and they see see this you know young women who who are you know law students and yeah this I just I felt like we we were lost that how is this part of the democracy that we all hold dear. How is this adding to the debate? How is this something that is going to also solve anything in the Middle East? I mean, I said at a press conference that the next day, if I thought that smashing up my office was going to bring about peace in my in the Middle East, give me a hammer, I'll do it myself. But it it didn't, and it all it did was just cost $100,000 to fix and scare a lot of people.
Counsel Assisting
It was also followed by a social media response?
Josh Burns
Yeah, I mean, I think this is part of the part of the thing that is is really it's difficult for the to sort of explain, but but in my mind, this is sort of the the narrative of that unfolds here. That I think the Royal Commission, I wanted to put to the Royal Commission, is that if if you inherently think that Jewish people are evil and therefore they can be you know they're fair game, well, that's that's a. That's a that's a particular type of person, but actually, I think that the the bigger problem is is when people draw more subtle links and start justifying things like that. And what I mean by that is, if you think that you know a lot of the criticism I have is that I somehow are loyal to the state of Israel, not Australia. I'm not an Israeli citizen. I've never been an Israeli citizen. I have no desire to be an Israeli citizen. I'm a proud Australian. I grew up here. I was born here. I'm a citizen of this amazing country. Yet, yet a lot of the criticism is that somehow Jewish people are loyal to Israel, not Australia, and therefore they then should be held responsible for the actions of the Israeli government because they're more loyal to them than they are to us. It's a sort of us and them narrative, and then therefore, well, look at what the Israeli government's doing. You know, it's nothing that you do to a Jewish person in Australia is as bad as that. So it's fine, and that sort of justification and that narrative of well, they're loyal to them. You know, what they're doing is terrible. Therefore, you know, therefore they're fair game. That's the sort of justification and that that that logic that I saw so often on my so often on my posts that you know it's okay. It's only a few smash windows. You know what about this or what about that? And when you see a lot of the commentary that is directed at me, it's you know it's somehow I'm celebrating the death of Palestinian kids or celebrating the death of the Palestinian people when the truth is absolutely not that. I mean, I've said on so many occasions that I I you know if I if I could see one thing in my lifetime, it would be peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians. You know, I dream of seeing the Middle East sorting itself out and finding a peaceful pathway forward. I don't want to see death and destruction on anyone. And to attribute that sort of intent or maliciousness to a Jewish person, or to attribute some sort of dual loyalty, is to create a space in which these sorts of things, like what happened to my office, is justified. It's a complete dehumanization of Jewish people, and I think that's that's where antisemitism in the mainstream can catch on, and that's where that's where it can get really dangerous.
Counsel Assisting
Can I call up on the screen a couple of the posts that you've referred to, and you've just provided a few examples attached to your statement. That’s Annexure JB-3 to your statement. This is just a selection, and I'll just refer to some of what you've included on this on this first page. The first comment on the page evidently is just refers to the the photograph of you with horns, and then the suggestion in the in the tweet on X, and that the second entry has that characteristic you referred to of immediately attributing to you a So-called genocidal characteristic, and and then over the page, please the comment at the top, suggesting it was most likely conducted by Zionists themselves. So one of these false flag conspiracy theories that we've seen in the commission, and then I think the third one down reflects one of your other observations about the suggestion repeatedly made that you have a loyalty to Israel rather than to Australia. So you came to be aware of numerous social media posts in this sort of category. Is that right?
Josh Burns
Yeah, unfortunately, we we had to become diligent in in trying to record some of them because it was pretty overwhelming. I mean, I'd make a social media post on X, you sort of can keep you can dust it off and keep moving through your day, but there is a problem where, whereas I said that there are narratives and there are there is sort of the the abuse that people get that you know they they really shouldn't have to, and there should be greater safeguards to prevent people from having to be subjected to this sort of abuse. I would I would think, especially online, which is which is such a big arena, and it is. Such a big vector for people's views and beliefs to be spread very quickly across society, and I'd say that people, the Jewish community, came to Australia because of the rights and freedoms that are attributed and that belong to Australians, rights like freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom-the rights to assemble, the rights to practice your faith freely-all rights have intersections, and there are very few absolute rights, as this commission knows. But surely, it's well within the rights of not just the Jewish community, but all Australians to be able to participate freely in our democracy without being vilified or having their loyalties questioned or having attacks being justified or somehow, you know, this sort of dehumanization as part of a sort of complete removal of any civility that we would show each other normally. I mean, you wouldn't walk down the street and scream this at someone else. Why should you be able to do it three, you know, 30 times a day online? And I think, I think this commission has a hard job of finding the right way of of navigating this to not to not stop people being able to participate freely in our democracy. You know, I am a fierce defender of the institutions of our democracy. I'm a proud member of one of the one of the most important democratic institutions in the world. But I also think that one of the things that all Australians would want is to be able to live life in Australia without facing this every day.
Counsel Assisting
You've provided in your statement some summary statistics of communications that your electorate office has received and that have been posted in respect of across various platforms, and you've recorded in paragraph 15 that the electorate office has received between 8-10,000 emails since October seven, 2023, and I take it – well, can I ask what proportion of those are critical or abusive that you've set out in your statement?
Josh Burns
I would say that very few people write to me about the Middle East saying how much they agree with me. In fact, most of the time, people write to me about the Middle East with some form of advice, often free and often frank. But that's that's perfectly acceptable. In fact, it's encouraged. It's it's part of our democracy where the vast majority of the communications of those you know tens of thousands of bits of incoming were either agreeable, disagreeable, critical. You know, they gave me advice that there was a whole range of them, but the vast majority of them were not abuse. They were not antisemitic. They were just part of the democratic process where people are absolutely free to express themselves in a particular way. There, there is a much smaller percentage of them that absolutely disintegrate into antisemitism, and I think the the the the way that I differentiate that, and the way that I make that delineation, is that when you are talking about a particular policy, of either the Australian government, the Israeli government, or you're talking about you know a policy that I'm referring to, fair game, criticize, tear it apart, disagree, protest against it-that is your democratic right. But if you are attributing certain qualities and often malicious qualities to an individual, or you're directing your criticism in a in a malicious way towards a Jewish person in Australia about the policies of the Israeli government on the other side of the world. Well, then that often and almost always disintegrates into vilification and and racial abuse. And yeah, the vast majority, though, councilor, yeah, per. civil, and I try and engage and respond to them as much as possible.
Counsel Assisting
You've referred to over 1000 phone calls and approximately 10,000 social media messages and comments that the electorate officers observed and recorded, and and some of the some of those at the abusive and antisemitic end of the spectrum, you've you've recorded in a statement. Sorry, in an attachment to your statement. Can I just bring that up for a moment? This is again a summary of some only of the either abusive or antisemitic or both communications that you've received across various means. So the the first one was in in an email blaming you explicitly for responsibility for the violence, referring to the Bondi attack. Then, if we can go over the page. Another series of extracted comments. Perhaps just draw attention to the one at the foot of the page, which is the text of a voicemail message left in your electorate office, accompanying abuse with the trope that we've seen of attributing Zionism as taking over Australia.
Josh Burns
Yep.
Counsel Assisting
And then on the next page. So the first entry at the top of the page: explicit criticism of view and attribution of blame for the action of Israel, and then the second one calling for violence against Zionists trying to justify attacks on Jews. That these posts and messages, of course, are dealt in the first instance by your electorate staff. Is that right?
Josh Burns
Yeah, I mean, it's it's a huge it's a huge responsibility and it's a huge effort for my staff to have to take steps to either hide comments, report comments, or you know turn comments off altogether if there's no time. There's the the safety features that a social media platforms have is basically just to turn off comments, which again goes against the sort of democratic instincts that I have. I want people to be able to agree and disagree with what I say, but but it's a huge effort to manage all of this, and it's pretty, you know. I mean, just looking at it now, it's sort of yeah, it's pretty heavy. It's a heavy thing to wear, and my staff are all kind and caring people, and they don't want to have to read this all day. And instead of it being some sort of you know race to make it safer to engage online, the social media companies you know you can report things and they rarely will return your you know return your call or return an outcome or at least given justification of an outcome, it just disappears into a black hole, which is exceptionally frustrating. But the other thing, also on on a sort of more general level, is that underneath a lot of this is that it's pretty perverse to blame the Jewish people for you know for antisemitism or for attacks against the Jewish community, I mean, you wouldn't, you wouldn't do it to any other community. You know it’s like being stabbed twice. You know, once for the antisemitism and once being blamed for being stabbed in the first place. It's it's something the Jewish community unfortunately has to face a lot of and yeah.
Counsel Assisting
You've also given some evidence about a video that you made with Allegra Spender MP and Julian Leeser MP, which was published on the 29th of April this year. In the video, the three of you together called on constituents to make submissions to the Royal Commission to this Royal Commission.
Josh Burns
We did. I mean, this is a really important commission, and it's got a big job, and I didn't want it to be a political message. That it was just me saying, ‘Please make a submission’. I wanted to do that across party lines. And Julian Allegro and myself have worked on projects before, and I like them both very much. And we decided to record a video encouraging people to make a submission to this royal commission because we felt it was. Important, and what happened was, unfortunately, any time you speak about the Jewish community or Israel, the Middle East, or anyone, it's like a big starting gun, and it's almost like the social media platforms drive that traffic to the darkest corners of of the community or society, where the people who are the most antagonistic are sent the content that they are most likely to be abusive on, and and yeah, even yeah, and and that that video, unsurprisingly, just received yet another reminder of why this commission is so important and a justification for it to be set up in the first place.
Counsel Assisting
So the again, if you don't mind, I'll call up the attachment to your statement where you've you've reproduced a selection of the abusive and antisemitic comments after that video was posted. And this too has a series of abusive, offensive posts. The second last one on the page, down the bottom, calling for murder. The final entry on the page, a characteristic you just mentioned of blaming Jewish people for antisemitism.
Josh Burns
Yeah.
Counsel Assisting
And if we can go over the page, another AI-generated item of antisemitic abuse. What did you or your office do to try and address or respond to these types of comments and posts?
Josh Burns
Well, I mean, I'd be lying if I said we had a great faith in the social media platforms to be able to help us manage this, and and in fact, it's a great frustration that that they don't. I most of the time we just block accounts from being able to participate if they're abusive or blatantly racist, but but yeah, I would hope that there's there's it's probably more sophisticated response that could be made, but it's got to be made by the social media platforms about the sort of conduct that is acceptable online, the sorts of complaint procedures they would have, the sorts of algorithms that are driving people towards the content that, whether you know, have they been abusive on previously? What sort of language are they using? I mean, all of Instagram knows when I was looking for a new high chair for my six-month-old. They can they can do a better job of of you know making it a bit safer online. I would have thought every time you open your mouth, Meta is listening. So it's it's it's really not acceptable that they that that the sorts of responses that get directed every single time you talk about an issue like this reflects this. Yeah, and if it's okay, Council, I may also sort of say, like, one of the things that's not we didn't do in relation to this, but but one of the things that I've had frustration with in the past is around, well, if the social media platforms don't take responsibility, what other steps can be taken? And I have taken accounts to the eSafety Commissioner in the past, of which they were, you know, very open to helping and very open to assisting. However, the current restrictions in the eSafety Act or the Online Safety Act only allow the eSafety Commission to intervene in an account where there is someone is commenting on an individual and inciting or vilifying that individual, not against a group of people. So you can be critical of a Jewish person and name them, but you can't be critical of the Jewish people, for example. Or you could be, yeah. So so that is a that is a huge restriction because a lot of the comments that you've seen are broader than just attacking an individual, while they might be responding to an individual, they're actually about a group of people, and and to me that seems like a a something that could be looked at for reform that would enable the safety commission to act. A better safety net, so that when you do get comments and accounts that are acting in a way that are vilifying a group of people, whether it be Jews, Muslims, First Nations people, LGBTIQ people, this isn't just about the Jewish community. This is about all people. That that those accounts can be either taken offline or directed to be taken offline by some form of safety net in the eSafety Commissioner.
Counsel Assisting
You've given a brief summary of your reports of antisemitic material to social media platforms. Yeah. In paragraph 31, you say that you've submitted 44 reports in relation to offensive and antisemitic material on Instagram and Facebook since November 2021.
Josh Burns
Yep.
Counsel Assisting
Three of those have resulted in removal. Nine were received by other platforms but not responded to. Is that right?
Josh Burns
Yep. Those numbers are correct, and I think the other thing to say, other than the vast majority of those 44 being not responded to at all by the social media platforms, is that is that I think the vast majority of examples you you don't you lose faith in the reporting processes, and I certainly don't report everything that I would otherwise, because I don't think I don't think anything's going to be done about it.
Counsel Assisting
Can I ask you about Some antisemitic criticism directed towards your partner, who's Ms. Georgie Purcell. She herself is a member of the Legislative Council in Victoria?
Josh Burns
Yes.
Counsel Assisting
She is not herself Jewish. Can can you describe what has occurred since your relationship became public in July 2024?
Josh Burns
It's probably one of the hardest things - you know you can sort of dust off things about yourself, but to have someone that you love get that sort of abuse. Yeah, it's it's awful, and she, you know, she she gets this sort of the same questioning of her loyalty and the same attribution of blame that I get, but she gets a layer of misogyny and a layer of sort of violent, sexualized comments on top of it as well that that I don't get, and it's actually really it's really stark the difference in the types of comments that both have this antisemitic undertones, but she also has this extra layer of misogyny that she has to deal with, and Like, like it's it's a weird feeling knowing that your partner has to take abuse because they're in a relationship with you. Like that's a it's a pretty awful feeling actually, and not because I feel sorry for myself, but because like yeah, like why why why why should she have to deal with that? And even making a submission, and you know, she was-we were sort of having a conversation, and she was very conscientious not to be trying to, you know, sort of seek publicity on this. This is the last thing she wants. She doesn't want to, you know. She doesn't want to be seen to be. She's a politician, and there's often a lot of cynicism in politics. And she didn't want to be seen in any way of trying to get attention for herself by putting forward this submission or by putting out some of the examples. But actually, even just speaking out, she she will attract an avalanche of hate and misogyny and antisemitism just by speaking out and and that's a lot to sort of walk into, but yeah, to see your family, to see your staff, to see the people you love around you just because they're associated with you cop this sort of abuse is devastating.
Counsel Assisting
You've attached to your statement and another annexure which has a similar multi-page spreadsheet of social media posts with the abuse against Her, can I just bring up one one page from that, if you don't mind. Some screen captures from posts on X. The comments made after the birth of your baby daughter.
Josh Burns
Yeah.
Counsel Assisting
And the comments on the right needn't be read out. Obviously, involve abuse and the kind of attribution to her of the characteristics that you've just described, and including just outright antisemitic abuse at the foot of that page.
Josh Burns
I think, like, this kind of goes without saying, but I don't think we should be mistaking advocacy for the rights of Palestinians, which is a legitimate and important cause for what we're seeing here. And and I was I was even talking to one of my good friends, who's a Palestinian member of parliament, about after Bondi happened, he he called me up straight away and he said, you know, can I come to a community event with you? What do you think? And I said, of course, you know, there's got to be room to for him to care about his people and the welfare of the Palestinian people, and also to know that antisemitism directed at Jewish Australians is unacceptable, and the terror attack against Jewish Australians is unacceptable. And of course, there is room for both. You know, they are not they are not counterproductive or in conflict. What we're seeing here, though, are people trying to use a cause in order to vilify and justify and dehumanize people, to target someone who cares deeply about the cause that they're purporting to be advocating for, and and to reduce them to malicious caricatures of the ancient antisemitism that would thought would never be a part of Australia, and Georgie's someone who, you know, she like she's not Jewish, but she's obviously her partner is, her daughter is, you know, my her my eight year old daughter as well is Jewish, and Georgie cares deeply about them, and she, you know, she, it's it's something that she has to walk into and confront, and she should never have had to do that. So, I yeah, I feel I feel extremely guilty almost that she has to face this. And every time she does speak out, I know that she has to face this and more of this. And some people can walk away from it, but it gets pretty. It gets pretty heavy when you face this. And and her, she's also much better at social media than I am, and has a much bigger following. And her platform is far more impressive. Although I do have great social media staff as well. They'll be angry that I said that. But her audience is huge, and so the frequency and the sort of veracity of some of the comments that she gets is worse than me.
Counsel Assisting
You've made some observations towards the end of your statement about the consequences of normalization of hatred and antisemitism that you see occurring in social media. Can you describe that and what effect that has on the Jewish community?
Josh Burns
I mean, let's take the starting point. The Jewish community love this country, as I know. All different minorities love this country. All different people love this country. Australia is a wonderful place, and the country that I grew up in was a place where I never had to hide my magen David that I'm wearing underneath my shirt. I never had to hide or be worried about whether or not I was identifiably Jewish. I never had to worry about who I was, and I think, I think that the Jewish community in Australia, you know, we always felt this was sort of the golden Medina. This was the golden era of Jewish life. We got to, I think I've got something like 3031 synagogues in my electorate, all within a few square kilometers. I mean, there's way too many, but they're all beautiful in their own sense, and people love going and being participating in Jewish life, but when you have this relentless abuse online and this relentless inability, or trying to squash or confront or push back or push down on Jewish people just for participating in democracy or participating in online conversations or participating in our. You know, in their in their workplace, their cultural institution, it is it is a message saying to the Jewish people that you don't belong in this Australia, and I think that I think that we all want to belong. We all want to feel hope and have dreams about what Australia can be for ourselves, for our kids, just like my grandparents did when they came to this country, but when you see this sort of torrent of abuse and this dehumanization, you question whether you have a place in this country, and I I hope that I hope that we that you know this commission is able to meticulously think about ways of restoring that confidence and that place in Australia, just as you want for every single Australian, so that the Jewish community doesn't have to worry about what they're wearing or worry about what people will think, just on the basis that they're Jewish, or whether their loyalties are even in this country. It's, it's. I can assure you, they are.
Counsel Assisting
You refer a little earlier to your hope that there might be some strengthening of vilification laws or the eSafety Commission's role. Is there anything else in that respect you'd like to observe?
Josh Burns
Following Bondi, obviously the government brought a series of reforms to the parliament. One of which was an attempt at a serious vilification clause. I do think this Commission is the appropriate body to examine how that would work, what sort of threshold may be applied, and how it may operate, and in its intersection with the state jurisdictions as well. It is a very difficult thing to legislate and police, but it may it may be worth considering how it can be adopted in terms of rules for online safety, how it could be adopted for participation in community forums, how you know I don't want to restrict people's ability to participate in our democracy. I just want to protect people from being vilified, and I just want to make sure that people don't have to curtail their own participation in democracy just on the basis that that they're Jewish or Muslim or queer or whatever they are. So I think I think this needs to be considered in in the sense of how do we protect people from vilification while also enabling free and full participation in our democracy. And I think that there were there were there were criticisms or concerns raised with the way in which the vilification clauses were put forward, both by the Conservative and the Greens part of the Parliament, all of which need to be taken seriously, and and this commission, I would hope, would weigh up all of that, and on the base, on the balance, consider whether or not serious vilification reform would be required. The other part that I do think, which I've already touched on the Online Safety Act, ultimately it it rests with the social media platforms. The spread and the pace in which people can get an audience means that you're not waiting for years and years for reputations to be spread around the whispers of street corners. It can happen overnight, where things can go viral and algorithms we know are preying on people's insecurities in order to hold their attention. It's almost as if, and my guess is that the social media platforms are directing content that is going to elicit a response from people who are going to send abusive reactions back and vilify people who have put up that content. So, how social media companies have been allowed to get away with it up until now is beyond me. I think they bear a huge responsibility for some of the toxic nature in which our political debate has descended to, the civility that is no longer a part of so much of political debate. I think is happening online, and this is I think the biggest arena of antisemitism we're seeing on a daily basis, obviously Bondi was the most severe, but this is the frequency and the volume is happening online. So I would hope that they are they are that is a big consideration. But the final thing I would say is that there's got to be a safety net because if they are if they continue their mismanagement of this, then the eSafety Commission is the right place to be able to have another avenue to turn to, and it seems to me, even though it's not yet government policy or not government policy, it seems to me a huge shortfall in the eSafety Commissioner's remit not to be able to examine posts that also do exactly the sort of things that would be looked at today on the screen is that they target people on the basis of their religion or race, not just on an individual basis, which you would thought is well within the safety commission to be able to look at. So I focus my submission on that. I. Don't pretend for one second this is an easy job, but I really believe in this country. I I love this country, and it's given me and my family everything. So I would hope that we have to keep trying to enable that sort of life that my two daughters are able to grow up in is one where they're able to be who they are and be free to do so in a way that is safe and secure.
Commissioner
Thanks, Mr. Burns, I'm going to assume that there are no questions from the bar table? So, thank you very much, Mr. Burns. You are excused.
Josh Burns
Thank you, Commissioner.