David Speers
Josh Burns, at the heart of this: it's not antisemitic to criticise the Netanyahu government, is it?
Josh Burns
Absolutely not. And I think you've seen Israelis demonstrate on the streets in greater numbers than we've seen in many Australian demonstrations. It is a vibrant democracy, and one where there are fierce disagreements. We were talking before the show about how, if you sit around a table, especially at a Jewish dinner, you're going to have a lot of disagreement. And politics—trust me—the community lets me know when they disagree with me. It happens fairly often, David.
But I think it's part of the proud Jewish tradition of debate and challenging each other intellectually.
David Speers
Let me ask you this. Some Jewish Australians even argue that the Israeli government and its actions are contributing to the rise in antisemitism here. Would you agree with that view?
Josh Burns
I think it's a very dangerous equation and a very dangerous thing to put those two things together because, as was articulated before, no matter what happens, or no matter what the Israeli government does, you cannot hold Jewish Australians responsible for whatever your views are of that action.
And Caulfield is the most horrific example of that. Those people who went to Caulfield were there to express their Judaism, their Jewishness. They weren't there to express solidarity or agreement with one particular policy of the Israeli government. It was the last thing on their mind. It was a celebration of Jewish tradition and culture.
And I think that's what needs to be protected.
You cannot blame Jewish people in Australia for what your views might be of another foreign government. You wouldn't blame the Chinese community for the actions of the Chinese Government. You wouldn't blame the American expat community here for what you might feel the United States Government is doing.
It's just wrong, and it's dangerous.
And I've seen people, even in my own political organisation, draw that comparison, and it's really dangerous.
David Speers
Let me ask you about some of the harder parts of this debate, where things have become particularly heated. The accusation of genocide—for example, it's being considered by the International Court of Justice, and UN bodies have made serious findings about the conduct of the war in Gaza. I'm not asking any of you to offer a judgment on that, but the debate about genocide—how does that impact Jewish Australians, and yourself?
Josh Burns
Well, it's a classic example of what people attribute to Jewish Australians.
For me, I see the commentary online that somehow I support the killing of Palestinian kids and families, when it just couldn't be further from the truth.
My family—my grandfather—the conflict was a big part of his life, and he left because he didn't want to raise his son amongst that conflict. It was one of the most heartbreaking decisions of his life.
I think you can hold multiple truths at the same time, but to somehow attribute to Jewish Australians this intent that you want to see the death and destruction of another people—it's just flat-out wrong.
And I'll give you a little story. Basem Abdo is the Palestinian Member of Parliament who was elected to Calwell at the last election, and he called me after Caulfield.
He said, "Is there a community function I can come to and sit with you at?"
And I said, "Bas, it's a really beautiful sentiment. There's one at a synagogue in my electorate. It's going to be pretty intense, but I think you're a Palestinian man. You're proud of your identity. You care about your community. But you're also an Australian. And to express solidarity with my people in this moment—there's got to be space to do both. There's got to be space to hold that dialogue between those two people."
And he came, and I'll never forget it.
David Speers
I want to ask you, Josh Burns. You're a member of the Albanese Government and a prominent member of the Jewish community as well.
Your own electorate office was attacked—windows smashed, slogans painted on the windows, fires lit outside.
Both professionally and personally, how difficult has this period been for you?
Josh Burns
You know, I didn't get into politics to be the Jewish guy, David.
I actually care about lots of issues. I'm really lucky to be involved in housing policy at the moment, and that's something I really care about—to help Australians get into a home or buy a home.
But I don't think any of us picked this moment in these leadership roles where you get thrust into it.
David Speers
But has it been difficult for you to balance the fact that you are both a member of this government and a member of the Jewish community, given we've seen friction between the two?
Josh Burns
It's more than that. It's been a tearing of my own identity.
I'm a Labor person. Many in the Jewish community have said, "Why don't you join the Liberals?"
Well, I'm not a Liberal. I'm not going to get into politics tonight, but I believe in the institution of the Australian Labor Party.
But I'm also a proud Jewish Australian.
And I wear a Star of David around my neck all the time.
David Speers
Do you have it on tonight?
Josh Burns
I do. It's in there. I don't want to show my Jewish chest hair... but it's a part of who I am.
David Speers
Did you ever take that off, or hide it?
Josh Burns
I never used to, but there have certainly been moments more recently where I've made the choice of, "How much emotional energy do I have right now to deal with whatever might come my way?"
David Speers
What sort of moments are those?
Josh Burns
Just if you're in a circumstance where you don't know the people around you.
I'm more identifiable these days, and it's one of those dilemmas.
Being Jewish is who I am, but being Australian is who I am.
The real litmus test for all of this, David, isn't how high our school walls can be, or how many guards we can put in—because I've been involved in a lot of that security funding and policy work.
It's actually how little people have to think about whether they're wearing something that identifies who they are.
David Speers
Let me get some final thoughts from both of you about what needs to happen—not just what government needs to do, but what we all need to do. Josh?
Josh Burns
Well, for the last two years, Alex is right.
It's been this cycle of antisemitic incident, government response.
I've been involved in so much of it—where neo-Nazis march, you put legislation in place to outlaw it. People are chanting hateful slogans, you try to put in vilification laws. It's been done around the states. People were protesting outside synagogues.
All of this sort of stuff has happened...
David Speers
Was the response always fast enough?
Josh Burns
Clearly not.
And you have to be humble about all of this.
But the more difficult job that we all have isn't just how high the walls are.
It's actually the cultural reckoning of our country.
As was beautifully expressed before, Australia has been a safe haven for the Jewish community. What it's given all of our families means so much.
We love sharing this country and contributing to it.
You can build more walls, you can protect more schools, you can arm more people.
But what's much harder—and why conversations like tonight are so important—is: how do we actually talk to each other? How do we understand each other? And how do we share this amazing country?