SARAH FERGUSON, HOST: Labor MP Josh Burns went to the Bondi Royal Commission today to speak about the toll of personal antisemitic attacks on him and his family. In June 2024 his Melbourne electoral office was vandalised, but what the public saw less of was the abhorrent antisemitic language that followed, some of which we're about to show you, heaped on the MP and his partner on social media. This is a small example of what they saw targeted at them online.
“Dating a dirt bag Zionist, a bit desperate are we? Have fun sleeping with a scum bag genocide supporter”
“Get back in your oven.”
FERGUSON: Josh Burns, welcome.
JOSH BURNS, MEMBER FOR MACNAMARA: Good evening, Sarah.
FERGUSON: We've used just a fraction of the vile language that was directed at you and your family. What is the impact of seeing those posts?
BURNS: To see your partner being targeted like that, just because she's in a relationship with me, is something that's really … it's actually … it's a really awful feeling, Sarah. It's something that I really feel bad for her, that she gets that sort of abuse directed at her just because of her association with me, and I know that it's not just for me, it's also towards other people across the Jewish community that them and their families get the same sort of pretty vile comments. But one thing that certainly I didn't appreciate until I saw the comments that are directed at Georgie is that not only is there this layer of antisemitism that obviously we can unpack this evening, but there is added to it a layer of misogyny, and at times really violent sexism and sexualized comments that she experiences as a woman in politics, and as a woman, that I don't get, so it's, you know, it's really awful. I don't want anyone to have to experience this, let alone people you love, and people who are only getting it because of their association with me.
FERGUSON: Some of the posts latterly even went so far as to target your new baby. That's correct, isn't it?
BURNS: It is. Yeah, our six month old, who is the most happy and kind and beautiful little spirit, and yeah, we feel very blessed to have her in our lives, but I think it also shows really just how stark and awful some of the comments are, and not everyone is like that, and the vast majority of Australians would never dream of doing anything like this. The vast majority of Australians, and even today the comments that I've received, have been extremely uplifting, because I think people from all across society, regardless of their race, religion, gender, sexuality – they want to live in a country where people are able to be who they are, to participate freely in our country, and to be able to express themselves safely.
FERGUSON: Now, you tried at the time to get these posts taken down by the companies. What was their response?
BURNS: Well, it's been a long and difficult, sort of frustrating experience with the social media companies. I mean, not only should they be taking more active steps to make it safer in the everyday experience, but when you do report it, and I'm sure people watching will have a similar experience, it's just like it disappears into a black hole. I think we've made 44 formal reports in the last few years, only three of which resulted in a platform or an account being taken down, the vast majority of which weren't even responded to, and it just led us to take our own steps, like blocking people from our accounts, or the worst case scenario was just turning off comments altogether, which I really don't like, because I want people to participate in engagement with me in the policies and the discussion of our democracy. I don't want to be restricting people being able to comment on the important discussions that are going on, but you know, if you mention the Jewish community, or you mention Israel, or the Middle East, it's like a big starting gun, and it's almost as if the social media platforms are sending traffic of those posts to the most antagonistic and abusive corners of the internet just to try and create that conflict and to try and exacerbate that conflict, and I think they have a lot of answering to do.
FERGUSON: So, what do you want the government to do? Do you want them to give more powers to the eSafety Commissioner to control the tech companies in the way that they have essentially ignored some of your requests?
BURNS: I think the way to think about it is a safety net. So primarily, the responsibility of managing the sort of ongoing daily abuse that is happening online in this major arena and amplifier of hate rests with the social media platforms. But if they fail to take adequate action or to be accountable for reporting or some of the content that is being pushed across their platform, then I think the safety commissioner should have a remit to be able to take action as they do currently. If you put up content that is dangerous or has child sex abuse material, or other examples, the eSafety Commissioner has very strong powers to be able to direct platforms to remove that content, but right now the eSafety Commissioner is limited in what they can do in terms of someone who is putting out racist material. I don't want to curb freedom of speech. I don't want to curb freedom of people to be able to participate in our democracy, but I want people to be able to do that without being vilified or discriminated or hurled abuse at, and I think that that's something that the eSafety Commissioner would be well placed to be able to manage that.
FERGUSON: And do you want the Prime Minister to take that up? He's obviously engaged with a social media ban. Do you want him to get in more into this area of trying to control particularly racial vilification?
BURNS: Well, I put it to the Royal Commission, because I think the Royal Commission is the appropriate place to consider all of the different aspects of this. You know, primarily, as I said, the responsibility should lie with the social media platforms to be able to make sure that it's safe for people online. Right now, it's not, and every single social media platform is providing a space where it's not safe for people online, and that's not just for the Jewish community. I look at the misogyny that Georgie, my partner, gets online. You have to only see what happened to the Premier of Victoria a few weeks ago, where even though it might be directed at one individual, it actually has a much broader application, and it happens to a much broader group of people. So, the social media platforms are primarily responsible. But I think this is something that we, as a Government, should be considering, and I put it to the Royal Commission for them to consider as part of their deliberations, and we'll see where we get to.
FERGUSON: One of the other suggestions that came up in the Royal Commission from Steven Lowy was calling for the community organisation that provides security to Jewish people for events and so on, that they should be armed. Do you agree with that call from Steven Lowy?
BURNS: Well, it may surprise you, Sarah, that there are there are some certain events and certain schools that already do have armed guards, that that is unfortunately a requirement for securing certain events, and we saw with Bondi what happens when you have people with long range guns that come to these sorts of events. Unfortunately, just having volunteers who are there standing without any form of protection is not adequate. So, this is something that needs to be considered. The Royal Commissioner made recommendations to this effect as part of the Interim Report of the Royal Commission. I don't want to see anyone having to have any event guarded, I don't want to see schools having to be guarded, I don't want to see fences built around schools, I want people to be able to engage freely, but unfortunately, where there is a real threat assessed by our security agencies, the adequate protections need to be in place.
FERGUSON: So, do I understand that that essentially is you are backing Steven Lowy's call?
BURNS: Well, I don't want to go into the specifics of what Stephen Loewy may or may not have said. I'll let the Royal Commission go into that, but on the principle of should Jewish events, or should any community event – whether it be a Jewish event, an Islamic event, anything that is deemed to be at risk – should they be safe to be able to participate freely in Australian society? Absolutely, and unfortunately, the evidence and the assessment of when people bring weapons like what we saw in Bondi – it can't just be met with defiance. It needs to be met with adequate security protections for people to participate in Australian life until at such point, Sarah, where it's no longer needed, and I really hope we get to that point.
FERGUSON: Josh Burns, thank you for joining us this evening, and for sharing those posts with us, however grotesque and vile they are. It's important. Thank you.
BURNS: Thanks for having me on Sarah.