ANDREW CLENNELL, HOST: Joining me live is Labor MP for Macnamara, Josh Burns. Thanks for coming on. We'll get to the melons in a minute. Can you admit that housing prices have gone down partly as a result of the government's tax changes?
JOSH BURNS, MEMBER FOR MACNAMARA: Well, I can absolutely admit, Andrew, that they've had an impact, and of course they have. You know, the whole point is that people are sitting –
CLENNELL: Finally. I can’t believe it, Josh Burns –
BURNS: Hang on, hang on. Let’s not mix what I say, right? Because you asked a straight question, I'll give you a straight answer –
CLENNELL: Well, that's unusual.
BURNS: There are a whole lot of Australians who sit around the table, and they look at their finances and they go, "Is it possible for me to buy my own home?” And for too long, too many Australians have said it's impossible. Right now, that's changing, and that's the point.
CLENNELL: So, you've tanked the housing market?
BURNS: No, we haven't tanked the housing market, alright? And you know we haven't tanked the housing market.
CLENNELL: No, that's a bit cheeky. So you've helped house prices fall, 10% in some areas?
BURNS: Actually, if you look at the numbers, right, there are reductions in house prices at the higher end of the market, but actually, if you look at the more affordable end of the market, they've actually remained very steady, and in some parts had small increases. And what does that tell you?
CLENNELL: Well, hang on, this is supposed to be about first home buyers.
BURNS: Exactly. What it tells you is that at the more affordable end, there's more people coming into the market, whereas when you have people who are investing in the higher end of the market, it's dropping off.
CLENNELL: Yeah but aren’t you supposed to make it cheaper for first home buyers? This doesn't do that, according to you.
BURNS: Hang on, your question assumes that we're tanking the market, and I'm saying actually, if you look at where –
CLENNELL: You’re saying you're tanking it at the top end where the first home buyers don't feature.
BURNS: No, what I'm saying is that if you've got first home buyers who are coming in and they're saying “On Saturday I'm going to go to an auction and I'm not going to be competing against an investor with tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in tax incentives, then I'm going to turn up and give it my best shot”, and that's what we want. We want Australians to know it's possible. And for too long, for too long, house prices were completely disconnected from wages, and that's – you know the biggest input is interest rates, but obviously negative gearing and capital gains was a factor, and I'm proud we got those reforms through. CLENNELL: Okay, it's better than a talking point. Now, no rate rise today. You happy or relieved about that?
BURNS: Look, I know many Australians would have said that obviously the cost of living right now is really high, and interest rates and their mortgages are a huge factor in that. But obviously, it could have been much worse, and I think Australians overall will be relieved that they are remaining steady. I do think that while inflation is high, while prices are high, and while Australians are struggling with paying for their mortgages, paying for their rent, paying for groceries, paying for all of the things they need, while there's uncertainty overseas, you know, we just have to be resolute on this – just like we were last time when we inherited inflation at a six [percent], and we brought it down to low threes, high twos, and we need to get back down to that level.
CLENNELL: Think we can get away without the Reserve Bank raising interest rates again in this cycle?
BURNS: Well, I mean, I obviously hope so, and I hope so for Australians. But you know, we have an independent Reserve Bank, and it's independent for a reason. And we're not a banana republic. The Reserve Bank has a job to do. I respect them, and our job as legislators and Government is to make sure that fiscal and monetary policy align.
CLENNELL: This gambling advertising legislation is taking a while to work out. The suggestion I have had is you will only ban inducements for problem gamblers in this deal with the Opposition. How easy is that to do, and will that fix anything?
BURNS: Well, let's see where the negotiations land, and let's see where the final bits of legislation go. I mean, I've seen some Members of the Coalition freelancing on this. I've seen other members of the Coalition saying that the person freelancing is not authorized to be freelancing. You know, I've seen a lot. Let's actually see what goes on. You know, we're still going through our own internal party processes on this, but let's not lose sight of what actually is happening here. You know, for too long – and actually, what's never been done before is – gambling advertising is corrosive and it’s got this toxic relationship with sport, and it is especially damaging for young men and also our kids. And my daughter loves the footy. She loves it. And when she's watching, you know, Carlton, thankfully now with a bit of hope, I don't want her seeing gambling advertising, and I want to be able to turn it off. And I think that no matter what we do -
CLENNELL: It’ll come on after 8:30. So you're going to send her to bed at half time?
BURNS: I would hope so – she's only eight, so hopefully she's in bed by 8:30. But, the bench is here – how do we break that corrosive relationship.
CLENNELL: We've had an interesting comment from the WA Liberal Ben Small about the government's multicultural grants, talking about the ghettoization of the grants. Controversial comments, but the story concerned here said 85% of these grants go to Labor seats. So, what do you say to that?
BURNS: Well, I’ll say a couple of things. First of all, if you actually look at the data and the 25 seats with the largest multicultural communities – 24 of them are in Labor seats. So, multicultural communities are broadly represented by Labor. But here's the actual point: Ben Small, referring to that as ghettoization. Like, let's just pause here. The largest grant as part of that multicultural program is in my electorate. It's an amalgamation of a lot of Jewish community institutions to sit next to the Holocaust Museum in Melbourne. Now, this was actually a commitment we made that was supported by and matched by the Liberal Party. I like Ben, but he needs to check himself on this, because we don't need to be using those sorts of loaded terms referring to World War II. You know, you can learn about what ghettoization actually looked like next door to what we're going to build. So, I would say the Liberal Party needs to be more sensitive on this.
CLENNELL: Speaking of sensitive, that's a neat segue, isn't it? This comment by Anthony Albanese about melons in connection with the Japanese Prime Minister. What do you make of the storm around this?
BURNS: Look, there's obviously been a lot of commentary. One thing I do know about the Prime Minister and the Foreign Minister is that they take our relationship and our focus on the Indo-Pacific extremely seriously. He has a very strong relationship with all of the world leaders, treats everyone with respect, and I would say that from coming into government, the one thing that you can say about us is that we have had a resolute focus on building relationships in our region, building up relationships with the Indo-Pacific, building up relationships with Southeast Asia, and Japan is a really important part of Australia's future. It's a huge trading partner, and we will continue to engage respectfully with them -
CLENNELL: It appears someone from Government may have shown a Japanese note to the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet on this to the Australian. That seems highly unconventional, to say the least.
BURNS: I haven’t seen –
CLENNELL: There was a story today where they had a note from the Japanese government saying, you know, we won't comment on this, etc. etc.
BURNS: Well, look, I haven't seen that story, so I don't want to cut across it. I’ll just say that we take the relationship with Japan really seriously, and you know, we treat all of our counterparts in our region and across the world, respectfully, and that's how it should be.
CLENNELL: Would you concede this podcast and the participation of the prime minister on it was unhelpful?
BURNS: Certainly got a bit of buzz about it, hasn't it? But I think that's what – you guys can smell the interesting stories. Our job is to try and get things through the Parliament.
CLENNELL: We all make mistakes perhaps?
BURNS: Andrew, I think people can have a sense of occasion and relax a little bit. But what is important is actually how we navigate Australia's national interests. And I know Anthony Albanese personally and well, and he – this is something he has dedicated his life to, and he takes it really seriously.
CLENNELL: Josh Frydenberg has protested that He wasn't invited to the Bondi Royal Commission. What do you make of that?
BURNS: Look, I know how much Josh has had to sacrifice by speaking out, and I know how personal it is for Josh, and I know how much it means to him and his family and our community. And I think Josh would be the first person, just like Mark and Julian and I, to say that it's actually not about us. You know, it's about the results of what the Royal Commission puts forward. And I read Josh's article in the Oz, and I thought one of the points that he made was extremely poignant and actually quite courageous, where he actually re-prosecuted the case for vilification and consequences for hate speech. Now, we tried to bring that into the Parliament directly after the Bondi terror attack, and we couldn't get it through. And the Liberal Party didn't want to entertain that. Now, that's not to make a political point. I will stand next to any Liberal member, Josh included, to try and get something through the Parliament, because as Josh correctly and articulately put forward, that is a missing piece. And if people are allowed to spread hate without consequence, then it's going to continue.
CLENNELL: Would you like to give evidence to the Royal Commission?
BURNS: I did give evidence to the Royal Commission, and I put in a submission, and they asked me to come and appear –
CLENNELL: Excuse my ignorance on that. So, I mean, why would the Royal Commission call a current backbench MP, but not the former Treasurer of the Nation, as two Jewish MPs?
BURNS: I mean, that's a question that you should put to the Royal Commission. I would say that, you know, I put in a submission. I joined Mark Dreyfus and Julian Leeser. I thought Julian's contribution was quite powerful as well. I know there's people from right across the political spectrum and also across the diversity within the Jewish community. Now, you know Josh, Josh is someone whose voice I take seriously, and I read his piece, and I actually think that a lot of what he's put forward has actually been enacted and listened to. So, yeah, I can only answer for myself. It's a Commission that's at arm's length from government. But one thing I'd like to see that Josh actually argues for is consequences for hate speech and vilification, and I'm ready to work with him on that.
CLENNELL: Josh Burns, thanks so much for your time.
BURNS: Thanks Andrew.