WALEED ALY: There are people ‑ there are community dimensions to this, there are political dimensions to this, there are a few people who embody both of those things at once in such a difficult way as the man sitting in front of me right now. His name is Josh Burns, he's the Labor MP for the inner‑Melbourne seat of Macnamara. Thank you so much for coming in.
JOSH BURNS: Thanks, Waleed.
WALEED ALY: How are you doing?
JOSH BURNS: Oh, I'm in shock, I'm in shock, it's an absolute nightmare, and to see the community that I love and a community I've been too many, many times and been on that beach many times, especially with the Jewish community in Sydney, it's, you know, it's absolutely heartbreaking, and I think as the picture unfolds we're learning more about each person that was murdered and learning more about their family, their story, and yeah, and that's the hardest bit.
WALEED ALY: I imagine you've been speaking to a lot of people within the Jewish community, probably more in Melbourne, but it's a very, very small community. What have they been telling you?
JOSH BURNS: I think the community's in absolute shock, and disbelief, but also at the same time very upset and very angry knowing that this has been something that we've been concerned about for a long time.
You know, it's rare that you would walk into a Jewish community institution right now, whether it be a synagogue or a school, or just form of organisation without serious security already. Often there are armed guards outside Jewish community institutions in Australia because of the real threat that is posed to just going about your life and expressing your Jewish identity in Australia.
You know, Waleed, there are Jewish community students who won't identify themselves as being Jewish on university campuses. A lot of Jewish people won't walk into the city because, you know, wearing something that visibly identifies them as Jewish.
It's something that I think the community has for a long time been very scared of this being the repercussion, or this being the event, and it's going to take a lot ‑ a long time to rebuild confidence in the community, and for now I think, you know, we just have to try and support each other as much as we can.
WALEED ALY: I want to get to the sort of more political questions around this; I'm sure you'll appreciate they do need to be asked.
JOSH BURNS: Sure.
WALEED ALY: But before I get to that, just at that human level, a community level, what do you think the Jewish community needs from the rest of us?
JOSH BURNS: Oh, you know, well, like we're all Australian, you know, we all ‑ like the Jewish community loves this country, and Australia has been a safe haven for the Jewish community. People look to this country as a way of leaving the antisemitism and the violence and the dangers of being Jewish in Europe behind. And for people who, you know, in the Australia that I grew up in and that you grew up in, Waleed, this has been a place where you could be who you want to be, express yourself and still be involved in all of the wonderful things of Australian society.
And I think the Jewish community feels like there are ‑ that that's at risk, and that that's been taken away or that that's a threat, and that we've had to take mitigating steps to be able to just be Australians.
But in actual fact what happened yesterday was, you know, it was literally fired upon, that notion of just being able to express yourself as an Australian, as a Jewish person and as someone who wants to be a part of our society. So what does the Jewish community need? It needs that country that provides that safe place and it needs that country that provides a safe and supporting environment because that's what we looked for when we came here.
WALEED ALY: All right. Let's flick the switch to the political side of it.
JOSH BURNS: Yeah.
WALEED ALY: I'm getting a lot of texts already wanting to raise all this.
JOSH BURNS: Sure.
WALEED ALY: Perhaps, I don't know, the starkest place to start would be with the response of the Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, who was speaking overnight. Here's a little bit of what he had to say.
[Excerpt]
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU: Your Government did nothing to stop the spread of antisemitism in Australia. You did nothing to curb the cancer cells that were growing inside your country, you took no action.
[End of Excerpt]
WALEED ALY: Do you have a response?
JOSH BURNS: I mean it's been less than 24 hours, like there's still people injured. I think there will be a time for a sort of an international diplomatic response, but right now, like it feels like the lowest of priorities to be responding on an international level. Right now, like there is a community who is still working out what the death rate and how many people were killed, and I think that's the focus as well as how do we actually work out what the next steps are for us, and you know, right now after I leave the studio, I'm going to be going to meet with Victorian Government authorities and community leaders about events that are happening tonight, this afternoon, over the next week; how do we make sure that they're safe. That's the sort of things I'm thinking about right now.
WALEED ALY: It's not just an international response though, an international relations response, it's also local. I can tell from the texts that are coming in, we're hearing people raising, for example, the Government's response, which they regard as weak, on antisemitism, I've got texts coming in here referencing the fact that the Antisemitism Envoy put out as a report; there's been no action on it. Does the Government have any culpability here for the atmosphere?
JOSH BURNS: I think we ‑ like we have to take responsibility, Waleed. This is ‑ we are in charge, and we are ‑ we need to lead in this moment, and part of that is accepting responsibility that this happened in our time of Government. And I don't think anyone should shy away from that. And we have to show leadership and being willing to meet this moment.
In saying that, what also is really important is that we deal with the facts, and we deal with what is in front of us and try and ensure that our response is strong and meets what's required.
We know that there have been 16 people who were killed. We know there are 42 people who have been injured. We know that this was being a father and a son who has come to Bondi and unleashed hell on a community just seeking to express themselves.
We also know that this has been something that the community has been warning for years. We know that this is happening too often across our institutions where people will minimise attacks on Jewish community organisations or people as somehow being justified.
We know that there is antisemitism festering across society and we do know that too often, you know, important and real discussions about what is happening in the other side of the world can descend into something that is far more sinister and relates to Jewish communities here in Australia.
WALEED ALY: So, if we know those things, I suppose the question that follows from that is what should the Government have been doing in response to that, and do you think ‑ I mean you said you're responsible in that this has happened under your time of Government. Did you meet the responsibility?
JOSH BURNS: Well, clearly there has been a terrible terror incident. I think the important thing is that we work out what our responsibility is to do now. That for me looks like ensuring that Jewish communities are immediately safe and that there is an immediate response, that the families of those affected are supported, that the community is supported.
I also think that ‑ let's remember here that there were ‑ this was a father and a son who committed this crime, and they are the ones who perpetrated this crime, and it was a terror attack and the terrorists were responsible.
What our job is, as leaders, is to ensure that, A, we work out exactly what has happened, B, we support those who are affected by it, and C, we work out what to do next, and I think, Waleed, that one of the big things that we need to be doing right now is culturally confronting this.
WALEED ALY: What does that mean?
JOSH BURNS: It means that antisemitism ‑ we cannot be complacent about antisemitism.
WALEED ALY: That's kind of what I'm asking: have you been? Not you personally. I understand this is a really hard thing ‑‑
JOSH BURNS: Yeah.
WALEED ALY: ‑‑ for you to be answering.
JOSH BURNS: I mean it's been my personal life, you know ‑‑
WALEED ALY: Yeah.
JOSH BURNS: ‑‑ I've been the target of it, and I've had to confront this ‑‑
WALEED ALY: I understand, I'm not trying to ‑‑
JOSH BURNS: Yeah. No, I know you're not. Like, you know, have we done things that have been unprecedented? Of course we have, but for one second, can we stop and say there's been enough done? I mean clearly there hasn't, and clearly we need to do more, and if yesterday was the worst, you know, the worst massacre since Port Arthur, and the worst terror attack on Australian soil history, you know, like we have to meet this now with an appropriate response and leadership, and that doesn't mean shying away, it means actually doing everything in our power to assure that it never happens again.
WALEED ALY: That suggests there are things in your power you haven't been doing. Do you have a list of those things?
JOSH BURNS: Well, so when I say "culturally confront this", I think that that happens across institutions, I think that whether it be in our cultural institutions, in our health institutions, universities, where people are somehow minimising antisemitism or not confronting it appropriately, that is an important place to start.
But I also think that, you know, clearly our law enforcement needs to be focused on this, and cannot, you know ‑ let's see what happened exactly, but clearly, this cannot happen again, and our law enforcement must be in a position where they are prepared and able to stop this from happening again.
WALEED ALY: It's coming up to 6 minutes to 9. I'm speaking with Josh Burns, Labor MP for the inner‑Melbourne city seat of Macnamara. I do need to let you go, but just one final question. Again, this is reflecting some of the sentiments that are coming through on text messages. I hope you appreciate I'm not reading them all out, because a lot of them probably can't be read out.
JOSH BURNS: I'm sure.
WALEED ALY: Do you see a connection between the sentiment that we've seen expressed on the streets in protests, and so on, on the one hand, and in these events?
JOSH BURNS: There are instances where people seek to minimise or legitimise attacks on Jewish community institutions in Australia or calling for attacks on the Jewish community in Australia, or if there has been attacks, then somehow justifying it, and that does lead to this.
I mean what leads to it these sorts of acts of violence is a dehumanising of one another, and, you know, there's always room for legitimate conversations about policy, of course there is. But when we are talking about dehumanising each other and dehumanising the Jewish community, I mean this is the inevitable place it leads to.
People who were killed yesterday were not killed because of their support of a particular Rugby League team, they were killed because they were Jewish; they were killed because they were at a Hanukkah event in Sydney. That is a very confronting reality, Waleed, and that is something that we need to make sure that we are clear about, and that we confront, because we cannot dehumanise each other, we need to stamp out this form of bigotry and antisemitism and, you know, words don't always lead to violence, but violence always stems from words and hate, and dehumanising and ignorance and intolerance, and that is something that we need to all confront together.
WALEED ALY: We'll keep an eye on what the Government's response is going to be. I'm sure you'll have your work could you tell out. But you're also going through a process of grief, so I understand how difficult this is for you, and I really appreciate you taking the time and summoning the energy.
JOSH BURNS: Thanks.
WALEED ALY: That's Josh Burns, Labor MP for the inner‑Melbourne seat of Macnamara.
– ENDS –